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Post by 46yblock on Oct 24, 2014 23:06:03 GMT -5
This weekend I am going to look at a '63 S22 with 4 speed trans. Didnt know they made them with 4 speed. Did they?...and would that have been with the 221, or 260? Also, would the 4 speed be a toploader?
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Post by roy on Oct 25, 2014 14:27:45 GMT -5
Yes, according to Jerry, a guy I met this year at Whitby auto show, driving a 63 Meteor & self proclaimed Meteor guru! The S-33 came with a factory 4 speed, made by a British co. called Dagenham, (might have spelling wrong) who made this 4 speed for Ford only in Europe mostly Now, this is from memory, check your Vin #, Auto trans -#3, 3 speed sticks # 2, so you would think the Vin # would be a 4 for the 4 speed stick, but, I;m told the vin # for a 4 speed was a 5! (got this from Hemmings motor mag.) Also, there was a 3 speed stick, with overdrive, which I guess could be mistaken for a 4 speed, eh? Still, there were very few S-33' 4 speeds made, so its a rare one for sure. And, id think it would be a 260 or 289, how do you tell? 260, most of em, came with a downdraft tube, which comes off a plate under the carb, the actual tube sticks down the pass.side of the motor & spews out crankcase fumes, (all over the lower firewall,body,eh) 260-289;s you should see a number around the starter area, just above the pan rail pull a valve cover, by the 2nd set of springs on the head should be a 260 or 289. Somewhere, I have a one pager bulletin from Ford(1962) all about how to replace the downdraft tube with a much more efficient PCV set up. Let us know what she;s like ,eh, love to see some pics. of any S-33 for sure
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Post by 46yblock on Oct 26, 2014 0:45:01 GMT -5
Roy, thank you very much for the reply and effort. I made a mistake. It is apparently a '63 S-22 Comet. I am still intrigued, but trying to fight it. May go over tomorrow. Like you I figure there must be a 260 in there. Until I began looking into this I never heard of Dagenham. The seller wants 1500, but it sounds rough and nondrivable, so that figure doesnt work. It also sounds like parts for Dagenham would be totally unavailable.
Some internet research indicates the 260/Dagenham combo was possible on the Comet. d**n, I need to get rid of a '60 Thunderbird before diving into the deep end again!
Mike
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jg
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by jg on Oct 26, 2014 8:49:10 GMT -5
.........Dagenham, I believe, was actually a town in England where Fords were built. There is a movie about a union strike there called "Made in Dagenham"........maybe a 221 in the Comet ?
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 26, 2014 10:44:48 GMT -5
I have a 62 & a 63 Meteor. I have a yard full of Falcons (63 Rancheros) First, to my knowledge Daggenhams were ONLY mounted to 6 cyl. engines. The V8's would have had a T-10. Second; year as well as model are necessary to answer most Q's here. 62 Meteor V8 221. 63 260. Comet - ALL - 8's are 260 as only 63 1/2 [VIN different location & on Falcons hood stays up without a bar)--had V8 option. SURPRISE, the 221 & 260 are NOT interchangeable though many bolt ons are - between 221 & 260. Daggenham parts are frequently on eBay. Most good daggenhams (worth about $500) are parted out - much more $$$ in parts. I have a couple of spares. I ALSO HAVE A SPARE 62 3 SPEED OD FROM A 62 METEOR COMPLETE WITH ALL WIRES, CABLE, MOUNTS ETC. The 62 Meteors came with 3/OD but not sure if 63's did. I also don't think it was available in Comets - but may be. It would not be confused with a 4 speed as the 3 OD is still column shift. Comets never came with 221's as by the time Comets had V8 option 221 had been replaced with 260 - the ONLY V8 available in 63 Comet's (or meteors). I suspect the self proclaimed Meteor Guru had a 6 cyl if he had a daggenham.
If the S22 Comet is near Central California & you don't want it, I would appreciate contact info. Finally, The Meteor is cousin to the Fairlane. The Comet is cousin to the Falcon.
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Post by 46yblock on Oct 26, 2014 18:19:55 GMT -5
I have a 62 & a 63 Meteor. I have a yard full of Falcons (63 Rancheros) First, to my knowledge Daggenhams were ONLY mounted to 6 cyl. engines. The V8's would have had a T-10. Second; year as well as model are necessary to answer most Q's here. 62 Meteor V8 221. 63 260. Comet - ALL - 8's are 260 as only 63 1/2 [VIN different location & on Falcons hood stays up without a bar)--had V8 option. SURPRISE, the 221 & 260 are NOT interchangeable though many bolt ons are - between 221 & 260. Daggenham parts are frequently on eBay. Most good daggenhams (worth about $500) are parted out - much more $$$ in parts. I have a couple of spares. The 62 Meteors came with 3/OD but not sure if 63's did. I also don't think it was available in Comets - but may be. It would not be confused with a 4 speed as the 3 OD is still column shift. Comets never came with 221's as by the time Comets had V8 option 221 had been replaced with 260 - the ONLY V8 available in 63 Comet's (or meteors). I suspect the self proclaimed Meteor Guru had a 6 cyl if he had a daggenham. If the S22 Comet is near Central California & you don't want it, I would appreciate contact info. Finally, The Meteor is cousin to the Fairlane. The Comet is cousin to the Falcon. Doberdawg, what makes 221 and 260 engines not interchange?
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Post by roy on Oct 27, 2014 10:26:06 GMT -5
rry;s was a 260, , He did say it came with that British 4 speed, but the 260/trans in his Meteor he had, were from another Ford. Right about the 221, it was replaced early on with the 260, but, I didn't know parts from a 221 didn't just bolt on to a 260, or 289 for that matter meaning geny, water pump, ex.manifolds, I know heads won't switch. good info
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 27, 2014 14:02:18 GMT -5
I am told that the heads will switch, but should absolutely NOT be switched, piston V valve problems. These posts repeatedly leaves out the MOST important piece of info, the YEAR of the supposed 221 to 260 swap - which I doubt. It could be done, you could cut the front halves off of both cars & swap, then weld them on. I have heard but not verified that some 221's came in 63s ( I doubt it, but...) Those 221's - if they exist - may be interchangeable with 260. I see the 221 as a 62 ONLY engine. The 260 was a 63 & 64 ONLY engine Facts guys not opinions, please!!! This is why you see MANY more 63 V8 cars converted to 289/302/351 but rarely see 62 (falcon/comet/fairlane/meteor conversions - lots of work eliminating shock towers (go Mustang 11 ) probably makes it doable??> imagine both cars sitting with engines removed. You look into engine compartments with a tape measure & realize that the 62 has 7 inches between mounts, then you see that the 63 has 12 inches. Then (on 62) you attempt to bolt on motor mounts & realize that you must eliminate or re-locate your oil filter to put mounts on (you still would not be able to install the 221 in the 63s place - MAJOR cutting/splicing/welding required. Last month I purchased another 63 Ranchero (I have 4) It was an original V8 (260) 4 speed model with blown engine. I had a 62 Meteor with a 221 with 30K original miles. I bought the 63 BECAUSE I thought I had a suitable - be it temporary - engine (221) to "get on the road". I owned the 221 for many years & it was a GOOD engine. Luckily I found a home for the - nobody wants them - 221 - whew!!! I stuck a tired 260 in the 63 while I look for a nice 289 or 302. At least I can drive it enough to see how worthy the rest of the car is. I would like to see 3 pieces of info clearly stated in our posts: Where in the USA is the info accurate? What year AND model car are questions referring to. I hope I save somebody from attempting to install a 221 in a 260 "hole". ANYBODY near Central California got a decent running used (not needing rebuilt) 289/302 for sale or trade? Although I would like to drive or compression test/oil pressure test, afterwards will buy with or without manifolds & bolt ons. I need 2, one for my 63 (original 260) V8 Ranchero & one for my 65 Comet Station Wagon,with tired 289. 2 or 4 barrel. engines fine. thanxxxx PS if you know of an engine email me at doberdawg@comcast.net please.
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Post by w2zero on Oct 27, 2014 16:43:13 GMT -5
221 was the only v8 available in the 62 Fairlane and Meteor. The remaining 221's were used in 63 Meteors and none came in Fairlanes for 63.
The 62-63 Meteor and 62-65 Fairlane are the same platform. Any engine that fits one will fit the other. The shock towers are the same throughout both cars for those years. The motor mount difference is one inch and that came with the additional casting plug being added to each bank of the v8. That required the extra inch and a mirror image top bracket on the same engine isolator configuration. One side is an inch forward and the other side is an inch back. The six and seven inches on the engine mount upper bracket is front to rear. The distance between the bolt holes side to side is 12 inches no matter if it is a 221, 260, 289 or 302.
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Post by 46yblock on Oct 27, 2014 20:53:32 GMT -5
221 was the only v8 available in the 62 Fairlane and Meteor. The remaining 221's were used in 63 Meteors and none came in Fairlanes for 63. The 62-63 Meteor and 62-65 Fairlane are the same platform. Any engine that fits one will fit the other. The shock towers are the same throughout both cars for those years. The motor mount difference is one inch and that came with the additional casting plug being added to each bank of the v8. That required the extra inch and a mirror image top bracket on the same engine isolator configuration. One side is an inch forward and the other side is an inch back. The six and seven inches on the engine mount upper bracket is front to rear. The distance between the bolt holes side to side is 12 inches no matter if it is a 221, 260, 289 or 302. Thankyou!
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 28, 2014 13:22:34 GMT -5
Sorry, but you are wrong. Perhaps some 63 meteors got left over 221's - I doubt it but have heard this before. However - & I have a yard full of these cars including both 62 & 63 Meteors. My only remaining Fairlane is 63. It & my 63 Meteor have same engine & same mounts). The difference in motor mounts between the 62 meteor (came with 221) & the 63 Meteor, the 63 Fairlane, & a yard full of 63 Rancheros is 7 inches, not 1 inch. Absolutely no doubt what so ever. your statement that: "...Any engine that fits one will fit the other...." is simply not correct. I really wanted to put my 62 Meteor 221 in my 63 (factory V8) Ranchero. 7 inches difference, prevented the swap. A friend had same problem. My 63 Fairlane/62 Meteor 221 - 7 inches difference & my fairlane was early build yet no 221??? (may be only some plants ). I had heard that they are supposedly interchangeable. As you are knowledgeable I will suspect a tiny chance that the 63 Fairlanes with 221's were planned by Ford & built with the 62 engine compartment. My manuals say there are 63 221's but I have never seen or heard of one, & for those few, either major mods to the block (oil filter in way) or engine compartment I think involving very different shock towers, we will see if I take pics(7 inches difference) I have heard that to post pics here one must do so through some 3d party. I tried once & was not tech savvy enough. If you want I will be happy to send you pictures & you can, if you want, post them on this thread - perhaps with an explanation I was unaware of. Some real hot rodders/fabricators looked at my situation & said "no choice", but a 260/289/302 for your factory V8 63 Ranchero: (again the 63 Fairlane & 63 Meteor engine mounting is identical to the 63 Ranchero [V8 models].) Baffled & with respect ... me If I could figure how to post pictures on this site I would offer pictures of the engine compartments minus engine with a tape measure between mounts. The 221 is gone or I would include a pic showing incompatibility of the actual mounts (oil filter in way for 221 to get 260 mounts). Auto parts stores, on line & walk in were unable to find mounts for 221 - some had listings but unavailable & commented on difference in appearance. No minor mods would make difference it was simply not an option without going crazy cutting & welding just to prove it could be done. One auato parts store sent 260 Mounts insisting they were the same, not even close. I did use the mounts putting a 260 in the Ranchero (tired half wore out vs FRESH 221). So, since everything I say is 100% accurate & easily verifiable my question is - were there 221's (not rumors) installed in 63 Fairlanes & if so which received the MAJORj mods to allow - - the block (doubtful) or the car - - a LOT of work or some real Mickey Mousing to make it work? ??
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Post by w2zero on Oct 28, 2014 16:50:51 GMT -5
63 Ranchero is basically a Falcon between the shock towers. Totally different animal than the Fairlane and Meteor. That Falcon/Ranchero is more closely related to the Mustang between the shock towers. Look at the bolt spacing between the motor mount bosses on the engine blocks front to rear. While you are there, count the freeze plugs on the side of the block too. Early blocks are two plugs and six inch spacing. Later blocks are all three plugs and seven inch spacing. While there are some minor differences in the engine mounts from 62-65 Fairlane and Meteors,both the rubber pieces look the same and most any parts store can get them and they are still being manufactured. The only difference in the topmost bracket is it has either six inch spacing (early) or seven inch spacing (late). Here is a link to a pair of mounts that are six inch spacing. They are also mislabeled as fitting a 61-can't read the rest Fairlane. They most definitely do not fit a 61 since that was a full size Ford and a very different mount. fairlaneforums.easyphpbb.com/viewtopic.php?t=4484
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 28, 2014 18:17:15 GMT -5
As I said, the motor is gone, so I cannot count freeze plugs or measure anything on engine. And Rancheros from 60 - 65 are Falcons, not basically. And yes, Falcons/Comets are different than Meteor/Fairlanes. I have swapped MANY engines between 63 - 65 Falcons & Falcon/Comets & Fairlane/Meteors. The engines, & therefore mounts on engine, & on frame are identical. But, as said the 62 meteor is different. This is not my imagination it is pure fact. I did offer pictures so you could see the error in your opinion. But I don't know how to post here & am NOT interested enough to go through some 3d party to do so. I did offer to mail them directly to you. I doubt (but could be wrong) that there was an early & a late 221 with different measurements. That said if there is any truth to the claim that some 221's were in 63s they HAD to be VERY different as there is a 7 inch (fact, not opinion)difference in the mounts & no way in hell (without going crazy with torch) to install the 221 in a 63 Falcon/Comet/Fairlane/Meteor. [unless as said some weird changes to either the 63 Fairlanes allegedly accepting 221, or the 221 block to allow installation in 63 Fairlanes.
I have a post for parts on Sacramento Craigs List for Falcon/Fairlane/Meteor parts. You can find the post & see pictures of my 62 Meteor, & my 63 Fairlane & 63 Meteor, & a 64 Ranchero (no 63 Ranchero in my post). Facts interest me, I respect incorrect opinions but smile. Yes, some auto parts stores will tell you (& believe) they have 221 Mounts. I bought some - they were 260/289/early 302 mounts. The vendor acknowledged their error & did research saying "no 221 mounts available" They did make it clear that they believed me wrong & the mounts the same.
Also, Jerry "...Yes, according to Jerry, a guy I met this year at Whitby auto show, driving a 63 Meteor & self proclaimed Meteor guru..." is no guru. Unless he was driving a 6 cylinder Meteor he did not have a Daggenham (which started this thread). My opinion is that between the shock towers in 63 ONLY is the same in Fairlanes/Meteors & V8 Falcons - again I say V8 Falcons. Factory V8 models. In 64 the Fairlane made room for big blocks so is then different. Beginning with 64 1/2 Mustangs through 66 they are the same between the shock towers as Falcons because they are falcons. But 64 rear Ends, & leaf springs, shackles etc are too wide for non modified installation in 63 Falcons. Rear rends for conversions to V8 suspension in 63 Falcons are difficult to come by. Most use Maverick with Falcon tie rod ends. Many now a days machine Ford Explorer Rear ends as they can get good gear ratios and 4 wheel disc brakes. You can almost name your price on 63 Falcon/Comet V8 rear ends drum to drum with leaf springs.
You are knowledgeable, but wrong in this post.
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 28, 2014 20:09:54 GMT -5
I missed the comment from w2zero...". The distance between the bolt holes side to side is 12 inches no matter if it is a 221, 260, 289 or 302. " That is the precise problem & totally incorrect. It is 7 inches on the 62 Meteor, & 12 inches on the 63 Meteor, 63 Fairlane, & 63 Ranchero, & I believe all Mustangs through 66. It is THE reason I was unable to swap my blown 260 with my 221
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Post by w2zero on Oct 28, 2014 23:41:48 GMT -5
The only big block in a 64 Fairlane is a 427. That was a run of one hundred cars for race only. The shock towers were cut back to allow for the bigger engine. The first 427 in a Fairlane was in a 63 to develop the Thunderbolts and was run by the Bob Ford dealership since he had experience with it. He had previously shoe-horned a 406 into a 62 Fairlane and both cars had the shock towers trimmed back.
The ford small block engines 221 through 351 all have the same spacing side to side for the engine mounts and it is twelve inches. That measurement is difficult to take unless the pan is off and the crank is removed. Seven inches side to side would put the motor mounts inside the oil pan.
The seven inch measurement is on the cast bosses on the engine block. That was increased from six inches on the early engines due to the additional casting plugs because they couldn't get all the sand and crap out of the blocks.
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