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Post by doberdawg on Oct 29, 2014 12:19:46 GMT -5
We are measuring different things. The 221 is gone so can not be measured. The donor, 62 Meteor, is here as are 62 & 63 Meteors, a 63 Fairlane, & several 63 Rancheros. Your statements sound like mine when I THOUGHT I knew what I was talking about & planning on installing a strong 221 in place of a blown 260. It never dawned on me (or a few mechanic friends with my same beliefs - based on rumors such as spread by your self proclaimed Meteor Guru. So, being certain:) that what you say is correct. I simply pulled both engines,ordered mounts etc. Then SURPRISE the 260 mounts would not fit the 221 & all I got from Auto parts stores were incorrect beliefs & assumptions mirroring yours. Baffled, but with both cars sitting here with empty engine bays (engines out) measurement was simple - & WOW everything I ever heard re: 221 v. 260 was wrong. 62 Meteor had 7 inches between mount holes (on frame)& 63 Ranchero had 12. And we looked & decided difference - at least by looking - in blocks. I understood why it was MUCH easier to get at & change plugs in the 221. Anyway, I am through with this thread as I can ad nothing not already said. I have "heard" that some 221s were in 61 & 63 cars but never seen such or know anybody who did. The guy who bought my 221 was so happy, as a 260 would not go in his 62 Fairlane (to replace his 221) & my 221 dropped in & was an EZ install. Then a Falcon AND fairlane guru (goes to all flea markets & rents 6 spaces) thanked me as he was about to do a similar swap (only because he was selling a car with a super 302 he wanted to keep.) He discovered, contrary to everything he "knew" before about 221 & 260's being interchangeable, that in his application it was simply not a possibility. \ I apologize for so much time being wasted here. But to answer the question in the beginning Ford never put Daggenhams in V8 cars, & a bell housing would have to be made to allow the super weak 4 speed to be attached to a V8. Your info, partially based on a self proclaimed Meteor Guru, is wrong. Yes, 63 Thunderbolt clones exist, but with big blocks have no useful contributions to 221 v 260. A last time I offer to send proof via pictures, but need a place as This site is photo un-friendly.
You did mention 221s being in some 63 cars. As I feel certain that the blocks were not modified to make this possible, I would assume that the frames were. Minor frame adjustments were made in 63 Falcons (over 62 & earlier)to accommodate a 260. Major adjustments were made in 63 Fairlanes over 62's for the same reason to allow the 260. Perhaps a handful retained 62 engine compartments?? The proof is always in the cars. I have - here in my possession - 62 & 63 cars. Perhaps Ford made adjustments in a hand full of 63 cars - at GREAT expense - to use up their remaining 221s.
I will continue to respect your opinions, but have one of my own: That you sometimes form your opinions on people you met (gurus) & rumors you hear. I form mine through experience & in this case a tape measure. When I am absolutely certain & HAVE PROOF as in this case I will argue. When I have (even with strong beliefs) opinions based on - what i thought were reliable sources (Gurus) I won't argue. Here I would argue, make large financial bets etc....because I am absolutely correct. Try Summitracing for some 221 mounts (only if you have a 260/289/302 to use them on).
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Post by meteorman on Oct 29, 2014 13:20:07 GMT -5
When I was young 1965 or 1966! My father got a 1963 fairlane wagon, green/ w tan int. W/ hyd lifters 39000 miles V-8 stick no power, a week later on a long trip 50 miles from home the right head gasket let go, so we put water in and drove it home, took head,s off car, warped head,s , 3 piston's eaten up! at the auto parts shop we needed heads planed 3 new pistons for a 260, Nate came back said we did not have a a 260 ,it was a 221! the engine looked like new in side! we planed the heads, new piston's, did some carb and timing work, drove the car till it had 196000 miles, what a great car run like a top, pulled boats, trailers, most time had 5 people in it, never used oil, never had a clutch, just brakes, the engine just whistled it whole life, not a lot of power, but what a great car. our 221 1963 fairlane's had a V on the fender, never said 260 at top! METEORMAN
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Post by roy on Oct 29, 2014 14:12:37 GMT -5
My 62 Fairlane I bought 18 yrs. ago, came with a 221. I installed a 302 in it, I simply pulled the top motor mount plate as they're an 1" to short, replaced with a 7"or so, piece of flat stock, drilled a hole & mounted to the 302 block, the bottom motor mount piece unchanged So, when you say "speak from expierence" I am! 221,260,289,302 no matter, a simple bolt in. You want to buy a Daggenham4 speed? I;ve never installed it, but, now I;m told it won't work behind a V-8, might as well sell it.
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 29, 2014 16:50:57 GMT -5
Just like you cannot put a size 7 shoe on a size 12 foot, you can not put motor mounts 12 inches apart already bolted properly on an engine in the 7 inches required to put an engine in a 62 Meteor. The space allowed for the 221 is 7 inches. the space allowed for a 260/289/302/351W is 12 inches. Put the 221 in a 63 & your heads will be about where the mounts should be, it will nearly fall through to the ground.
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Post by w2zero on Oct 30, 2014 14:26:27 GMT -5
All 221 through 351 blocks have 12 inches between the cast engine mount bosses SIDE to SIDE.
Early 221, 260 and 289 blocks have Six inch spacing between the cast in engine mount bosses FRONT to BACK.
All SBF blocks after mid 1964 have Seven inch spacing between the cast in engine mount bosses FRONT to BACK.
The physical dimensions under hood for all 62-65 Fairlanes and 62-63 Meteors is the same.
I'm sure you will reply further but that is the end of it for me. If you need any information, join the FCA or buy Bob Mannel's book which is the absolutely definitive source for all early SBF iterations.
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Post by doberdawg on Oct 30, 2014 17:39:13 GMT -5
46Yblock...........You said in part............"Some internet research indicates the 260/Dagenham combo was possible on the Comet. d**n...." Care to share the link or research? I sincerely doubt the accuracy - of the research, or claim - for a BUNCH of reasons. I guess somebody spliced a couple of bell housings together, or welded the tranny to the 260???
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Post by roy on Nov 1, 2014 12:09:32 GMT -5
I;m not going to argue just for the sake of arguing, buddy. I can tell you from experience, I;ve seen/driven a 63 Meteor 4 speed with the D.trans The motor, was a 170 c.i. 105 HP six banger, Have I seen a V-8 221,260 with a 4spped, no, not in person so if your point is "There are No, V-8s with that D. trans", sure, you could be right. I'm certainly not going to loose any sleep over this But, if your trying to say a 221 is physically different than a 260, 289's dimensions, they ain;t! I think it was you who said-Don't try & bolt a set of 221 heads on the bigger thin walls, Your right about that. On to more fun stuff, eh. There is a 63 comet in a vacant bone yard, not far from my house I must have driven by this place 100 times, & didn't notice it , the entrance being blocked in, but, we walked around the barrier yesterday & there they are: 63 Comet 63, 64? Fairlane 2 door 62 F;lane more door 65 Chevy 11 64 Galaxie, which looked in great shape, closer inspection revealed no floors, but, the body is surprisingly solid All of em are beyond repar, at least by my hand, but, there is trim, mucho trim! a trunk lid hood or 2 We didn't spend much time there, but, no homes, nothing around for miles! Now, if I can just find out who owns the yard or the land
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Post by doberdawg on Nov 1, 2014 13:49:40 GMT -5
I speak mostly of the engine compartment - the "hole" where the motor mount stud goes. To me this is the easiest spot to identify in print, especially for lay people like me. It *(the holes for the studs) are what I call 7 & 12 inches on 62 & 63 Meteor/Fairlanes respectively. I don't want to fall for discussing something I am not clear on such as engine bosses etc. Forget hte engine & look at the engine compartment. Now, ROY points out replacing with a 7 inch plate.
My problem (in the 62)is the opposite,. I'd have had to remove 5 inches of "air" moving the mounting plates (NOT on engine, but in engine compartment)outwards toward tires several inches. In the 63 (wanting to put the 221 from the 62 in) The opposite problem, I'd have had to add a plate several inches from "mounting holes" to toward center to give motor mounts (which would NOT work on 221)a place to rest - other in mid air. Funny, knowledgeable people are so certain of what they think they know that they have no interest in pictures PROVING once & for all the situation I have attempted to describe. I too am finished. I will leave with a favorite saying to those not needing anything to disturb their closed minds & incorrect opinions - - - - "
Remember, it is what you learn AFTER you know it all that matters.
Cars sitting, available, in my yard prove my points - absolutely. I am not arguing (& never intended arguments) only to correct the Daggenham as being ONLY a 6 cyl tranny) It is best known in 6 cyklinder Mustangs. It [in a V8 by some self porclaimed Meteor Guru:))) ] was among the many totally wrong opinions presented here as fact. Most opinions were not & could not be backed up with facts such as pictures of current cars.
Three of us, this year, encountered the same problem, but the other 2 learned from my situation, & visiting with a tape measure. Both are small block men who, like me [& some on this site] are small block ford people who had the opinions posted on this site for decades, until reality & a tape measure "educated" them - - at least for 62 jMerc Meteor 221 engines - DONE - sorry (for all the misinformation presented as fact) my corrections made!!!
Truly I am sorry, this got out of hand & was not intended. If it was not for the easily provable absolute FACT that I am 100% correct I'd have dropped it early on. Those not familiar with the reality of 62 221 v any year 260/289/302 mounting, but more than willing to argue as if they knew of which they speak egged me on with uninformed opinions. Bummer is I respect these posters & acknowledge that generally their knowledge far exceeds mine.
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Post by w2zero on Nov 1, 2014 17:03:19 GMT -5
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Post by w2zero on Nov 1, 2014 17:05:41 GMT -5
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Post by w2zero on Nov 1, 2014 17:07:24 GMT -5
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Post by w2zero on Nov 1, 2014 17:23:35 GMT -5
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Post by doberdawg on Nov 1, 2014 18:53:08 GMT -5
On picture image.mustangandfords.com/f/42846784+w650+h650+cr1/mdmp-1303-06%2Btech-vs-engine-swap%2B1962-1965-fairlane-1952-1963-mercury-meteor.jpg Distance (not referred to by me or of interest - but a good reference point). Yes, there is aprox. a 1 inch difference in 62 & 1963 at that point. Unfortunately that is not where an engine bolts in. NOW look to where I keep mentioning, a foot or so closer to the ground than your tape measure. Each side has a big "hole" for the Mount. [all my cars the diameter of the hole is about - perhaps 1/2 inch or less yours is over an inch??] More importantly, it is about 7 inches center to center on hole in my 62 Meteor where a 221 used to be, & 12 inches in YOUR picture & all 5 my 63 Fords/Mercurys & the same on my 2 64 Rancheros & my 65 Comet. All are V8 cars. It is this 5 inch discrepancy that makes it impossible, or VERY difficult with major modifications necessary to install a 62 221 from a 62 Merc Meteor into a 63 anything I have encountered. WHY CAN'T WE POST PICTURES ON THIS SITE ?? I can't believe the length of this thread because a picture could not clearly explain.
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Post by w2zero on Nov 1, 2014 19:48:50 GMT -5
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Post by w2zero on Nov 1, 2014 20:18:18 GMT -5
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